Sunday, March 2, 2008

Childlike Simplicity III

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"The Shaman Artist
Wishes to express to us
Through The art form
That we are all
Like children
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Our childlike simplicity
With dignity and sweet humility
We view
One environment
and
Remind us of the Pure Spirit
Expressing itself upon ourselves."
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Norval Morrisseau, 1983
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* Detailed information about the painting in this posting unknown: "Mouse" , © c. 1970s Norval Morrisseau /Private Collection/

102 comments:

Spirit Walker said...

Due to the fact that Norval Morrisseau had ability to draw spontaneously, never lifting his pencil from the paper until an image was complete and due to the fact that he applied the same technique while painting (Pablo Picasso had it) it would be almost impossible that someone can create so much Great art that is attributed to Norval Morrisseau if Morrisseau really didn't do it.

Why would someone create mesterpieces attributed to Norval Morrisseau and not try to make name for himself/herself?

I my opinion all the stories about fakes are just to give some galleries "advantage" when selling Norval Morrisseau works.

If I had a venue for showing the public what I know everyone would be able to see that the best signature of Norval Morrisseau lays in paint application on the face of the canvas/paper and not in the way pieces of art are were signed. Of course that signature(s)is/are also important but not as important as the painting technique.

As Jack Pollock said: "...Norval, with his incredible ability with the formal problems of art (colour-design-space) and his commitment to the world of his people, the great Ojibway, give one the sense of power that only genius provides... It is sufficient to say that in the history of Canadian Painting, few have, and will remain giants. Norval shall."

- If someone wants to challenge me by sending me images of the front and of the back of the piece(s) of art you have in your collection(s) I am available at spiritwalker2008@gmail.com or at "Skype" (user name spiritwalker2008).

Thank you for your attention.

Spirit Walker said...

Yes, certain comments have been removed because certain things are beings repeated so many time that they became redundant.

Why someone does not contribute with their own presentations regarding certain issues and not just "beating around a bush"?

I can provide you with a platform to present your case her as a part of the posting that everyone can see. What do you think about that idea? I need some assistance...

Can you help me?

annoyed by censorship said...

SpiritWalker
why have you removed many posts from the last day or so? one was my post as well as several others?
you call this looking for the truth?
just open the blog for all to post see,that is how blogs work?
you clearly monitor regularly.
or do you have another motive?????????????????????????

Spirit Walker said...

Bad comments that are not founded on facts can destroy the Blog...

Why don't you contact me directly @ spiritwalker2008@gmail.com?

Skype user name: spiritwalker2008.

Do you really have the best interest for Norval Morrisseau in mind?

My only motive is justice for Norval Morrisseau. Can you assist me?

Anonymous said...

I participate fully only in open blogs, as do most others. untill such a time I suspect many will not open up. at least here as paranoia now runs rampant.
deleting posts takes away the openess needed for constructive critical debate.
that is perhaps why people will not submitt pictures, as the trust has long been lost.
it will now be a long journey to regain any of it back

thank you

Spirit Walker said...

You deserve the right for your opinion.

Those with good intentions for Norval will understand my actions.

Thank you!

Spirit Walker said...

Many are judging what I am doing... Can you provide some insights spiced up with images the way I do? I will consider you credible then... Thanks.

Anonymous said...

I agree these posts should NOT be moved unless someone is calling a poster every name under the sun. This is why it is called a "blog" so people can express their expressions. I am a regular poster here but now have decided to stop posting because of this "censorship"

Spirit Walker said...

I do not worry if people are going to judge me for what I am doing.

I am exposing myself with knowledge I have and Norval Morrisseau's images I have available to present to you.

I am doing this with good intentions and all of you are free to join.

For all of those that are hiding behind "anonymous" name are free to register and then all of their comments will be posted uncensored and then other registered users will decide if certain user's privileges are going to be revoked or not.

Until then you are free to do as you want and I will continue telling my story while others are free to join.

Megweetch

Anonymous said...

eBay vendor thunderbear888
email:bluenova999@rogers.com
Michael R.Moniz
SKYPE ID:michaelrockefellor

The company linked below can be contacted for further details concerning the nature of their work.Mr.Brian Lindblom will also testify in a court of law and has already worked with identfying Norval Morrisseau's signatures that have been painted on the reverse side of canvases.
DOCUMENT EXAMINATION CONSULTANTS INC (BRIAN LINDBLOM,B.A.,FSSocDIP)
Mr. Lindblom is regularly called upon by law enforcement agencies and is one of CANADA'S Experts in the field.
I have compiled an interesting detailed body of work titled "How to identify a Norval Morrisseau Signature".This article will be inserted into the blog.You can view this article now in my "about Me" page that is found in my eBay store Thunderbear-Canadian Art Gallery.It is an ongoing work and will be added onto as I see fit.Thank You.

Link to signature article by Thunderbear-Canadian art Gallery:

http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=thunderbear888

Link to Document Examination Consultants, Inc. Scientific Examination of Questioned Documents by a Qualified Forensic Document Examiner.

http://www.decinc.ca/

Anonymous said...

This painting was owned by a private collector in Toronto who had purchased it from Kahn Auctions along with a large number of other Morrissau paintings that he sold off over the years(once again - no provenance further back then Kahn which may have been why the collector in Toronto decided to sell his entire and large collection). I think it was offered for sale on eBay a year or so ago. It was not a large painting...

Anonymous said...

Hi I posted about things being deleted. I'm seeing child like comments posted again.
I have no issue with these being "pulled" but please do allow them to be posted first, and perhaps after a day or so remove it. what I am against is the removal of tough questions or comments with NO personal attack on the poster?
would the CHILD please remove himself from this blog. thanks

Anonymous said...

Agree with the above statement regarding removing posts. Attacking people and being rude should not be permitted but removing questions being asked is a bit much no matter how many times they appear (consider this...if anyone was willing to answer them then they would stop appearing!).

Bryant Ross said...

Morrisseau's main dealer in the 70s was Jack Pollack. My question to supporters of the questionable paintings from the 70s is, why do none of these paintings from the 70s have a sticker on the back from the Pollack Gallery. It would seem to me that if Morrisseau painted these pieces, some of them would have been sold through The Pollack Gallery. It is absurd to say that Morrisseau painted one style for Jack Pollack and another style for sale to others.

Anonymous said...

agree, answer the question and it is likely not asked again.
the Pollock question is good, although we all know Pollock lables were also faked.
I would like to hear/see one painting that Pollock sold which was signed on the back?
I suspect we will not see this as Morrisseau did not sign originals on the back in general.
(He signed very few perhaps less than 100)to help out others, this was then continued by the fakers as they thought the english signature gave the painting more cred with the white people who were buying these works.
MORRISSEAU DID NOT SIGN HIS ORIGINAL WORKS ON THE BACK IN ENGLISH. HOW MUCH MORE CLEAR CAN I BE.....
the only people who did not know this was the fakers. wake up white people.
this is the answer you have waited for. it is now for ALL to see.
end of debate.

Anonymous said...

PLEASE, if you are making a statement like the last one PLEASE leave your name so thousands of people will know who to sue.UNBELIEVABLE

Anonymous said...

the truth is painful, and often hurts.
I ask you to show me ONE painting, documented, authentic that is signed? (this has been asked before, to date I have never seen one, I'm sure you have seen many.)
I will then eat the frame first, followed by the glass.
perhaps it is you who will be sued?
I speak only the truth, is that not what you are after?

Anonymous said...

I will not debate the truth posted here. it is the truth, maybe if you spend some time you can prove me wrong.
one authentic documented signature, that is all i ask. just one.'
not a unreasonable task?
or is it
good bye fool

Anonymous said...

I personally have seen a signed, in ENGLISH, on the back, in Norval Morrisseau's private collection, when he was alive. So that statement is TOTALLY UNFOUNDED. End of DEBATE

Anonymous said...

Ask Gabe where it is he has it at his home on a wall. Call him and start eating..do you want his #?

Anonymous said...

perhaps you should call, you are clearly not intrested in the truth from me, so go ahead and hear it for your self, I have no intention of wasting my time on this blog arguing with you.
I said what I said and it is the truth. lies will not change what is fact.
good bye to all

Anonymous said...

There is really no reason to believe one person over another or one side other the other side because no one says anything other then their are fake or they are real. Hates off to those on this site using their names that have knowledge to share with others interested in knowing more and being better educated.

It is time for facts and not making big statements with no support - makes me question if either side has support or not.

Anonymous said...

And then postings that are not offensive and ask questions or raise concerns get deleted!

Anonymous said...

look, we can go on for an eternity, lets tackle and debate one issue at a time?
first issue.
can anyone identify a documented work that is signed on the back?
yes or no ( and I don't want to hear.. well I saw one" DOCUMENTED.
this is not an offensive question, it is very important. if you don't agree why?
let's identify one painting we can ALL agree on.
otherwise we get lost in the he said/ he said....
ONE PAINTING and then we move on to the next question.
seems fair to me?

Anonymous said...

the only person to get sued is the one who sold 1000s, not the guy who told us what to look for?
he must know something? got anything else?

Anonymous said...

So, when you ask if one needs to be documented..by WHO? ROSS? Kinsmen? Who is the "document" expert? Certainly not one of them.

Anonymous said...

your stalling and denials are getting very tiersom
how about one that has been in an exhibit that Morrisseau was a part of, it makes no diff where.
perhaps one of the 100s that are well documented in numerous published books.
I suspect you do not have faith in any of these either.
give us a break.

Anonymous said...

I have had it here.
some people just can't see or hear the truth.
if in doubt, don't buy a Morrisseau from anyone, if you do, go with your gut and buy from whom ever has the best rep.
it's not hard to find.

thanks

Anonymous said...

ok so there are 100's of documented photos and exhibitions with Morrisseau present. What about the other 5000-8000 he painted? They are NOT documented. Are you stating that since they were not documented then they are what..FAKE?

Anonymous said...

...seems to me a 'document' examiner is an unlikely 'art' expert.

for every 'expert' you find, there's one who will refute his/her claims ...on the record.

comes down to credibility

...who do you believe??? think about it, then ask your questions.

Anonymous said...

still looking for one painting?
one signature?
I think we will all wait a long time, as ONE continues to cloud and avoid the issue.

Anonymous said...

To my knowledge of Morrisseaus that are documented I have not seen one with a painted signature on the back. Then again - I do not have access to all the paintings and ones that I have seen I have not necessarly had access to see the backs of the them.

There will always be undocumented Morrisseaus - it was part of him - paint a painting for this person to pay for something or in return for something. Mr Ross also states he would be interested in seeing paintings because he knows there are paintings out there that have likely never been seen to the general public as they went from artist to owner.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Michael and Spirit Walker for presenting visual to support thier case.

So - if they are fake paintings and you are an expert ... where are they coming from?

Anonymous said...

anyone else hear this...

i heard that Norval never got paid anything more than a measly deposit on those 'subway' paintings...

i don't suppose anyone can pass along clear title on those pieces if the artist never got paid properly in the first place...

correct me if i'm wrong.

Anonymous said...

Re Subway paintings
He may not have got paid for them but has nothing to do with the current owner of these pieces who merely was renting space to Morrisseau in Toronto as he required a large space to paint paintings of this size. When he could not pay rent he gave these paintings to the individual instead of cash for rent.

Anonymous said...

The above outlines similar situations that exist with many good pieces of Morrisseau's work. He exchanged quality paintings for food, booze, shelter....

Anonymous said...

or...

did they just conveniently 'disappear' from morrisseau's place???

more questions...who to believe

Anonymous said...

Nice story by the current 'owner' but it doesn't mean that the estate has no claim here... something for the executor(s) to verify

Anonymous said...

question to
Gabe, Kinsman, Mr Ross, NGC
have you ever had a Morrisseau painting which was signed on the back ? if so which one?
I doubt there is any need to lie about this?
again we are going off topic?
or is this the intention?

Anonymous said...

are the subway paintings signed on the back?

Anonymous said...

I have seen these paintings at Maslak, they are stunning.
I did not get to see the back, even when I asked. my question regarding the back was also not answered.
this was in the last 6 months or so.

Anonymous said...

perhaps the paint on the signature is drying as we speak?

Anonymous said...

W5 has a way of getting to the bottom of things?
or should we not trust them either?

Anonymous said...

I wonder why the NGC 'passed up' the opportunity to buy these?

do they know someting???

Anonymous said...

tell us more?
personal theories are not subject to lawsuits, as they are speculation and fall under the freedom of speech.
even though some just want to sue for the "fun" of it? as there is no profit in the truth.

Anonymous said...

for W5:

Why is David Morrisseau signing his name to 'certificates of authenticity.' What knowledge does he have of his father's painting stints?

Anonymous said...

this is why I love "open" blogs.
as imformative as the comments can be, so equally can the silence of some?
Joe, I know you are there?
speak Joe. speak.

Anonymous said...

I've now spent a good deal of time here today. I still have not heard one answer?
people will just give up if the questions are asked, only to be deflected, ignored, or a comeback with slander is presented.
ONE PAINTING WHICH IS SIGNED
anybody? please......what is the point?
ONE PAINTING WHICH IS SIGNED

Anonymous said...

spirit walker...if you seek the truth as you say you do...then you need to dig deeper...Norval would be turning over in his grave if he heard some of the nonsense circulating about his work...you should invite W5 into the fray...see what they uncover.

Anonymous said...

great idea! let's get W5 in on the action! any one know who to write to?

Anonymous said...

I'm sure that Gabe would enjoy going on the record. Look at how well he handled himself in CBC's Life and Times biography.

Anonymous said...

Silence from Maslak???? Come on...how about....

Silence from Kinsman Robinson...

Silence from NMHS...

Silence from Gabe...

Silence from Aaron Millard...

Silence from the Morrisseau family...

Silence from all of Norval's apprentices...

Silence on details from owners of 70's paintings with signatures on back...

Silence from auction houses that are known to carry Morrisseaus regularly...

Silence from any gallery that sells Morrisseau paintings...

HATS OFF TO SPIRIT WALKER, MICHAEL MONIZ AND BRYANT ROSS FOR ACTUALLY HAVING A VOICE AND SHARING THEIR KNOWLEDGE OPENLY AND HONESTLY - although I may not agree with all comments made!
The rest of you making the claims that you are should be embarassed and discredited as having no leg to stand on unless you can post without using anonymous identity. I do not think you have the balls to do so.

Thank you

DP

Anonymous said...

like i said before it all boils down to who you believe...

Anonymous said...

what about W5??????????????

Anonymous said...

excuse me, NMHS are on the record with Michael's letter previously posted...read it, its informative

Anonymous said...

Give it up - NMHS has not made any comment directly on this blog. You are kidding yourself stating that that letter is NMHS making a comment related to topics discussed on this blog. NMHS likely has no time for this garbage.

Anonymous said...

....Nor do they have time to respond to an email I forwarded to them with a picture of a Morrisseau in my collection

Anonymous said...

except that every now and then little jewels of truth come forward through the muck

Anonymous said...

have you seen some of the paintings that David Morrisseau has authenticated?

Anonymous said...

would be nice to hear from christian or david?

Anonymous said...

W5 has been contacted
Victor Malarek.

Anonymous said...

JZ: Can you ask Christian to comment for the record?

Anonymous said...

I doubt John or Christian will reply. they have class.

Anonymous said...

even if they do reply (not that I know who John is!) they most likely will not use an identity.

Anonymous said...

google W5 victor Malarek

Anonymous said...

JZ: Anything official from the Morrisseau Family Foundation?

Anonymous said...

Finally.

W5 will bring clarity to the issues.

Thank you Victor Malarek in advance.

Anonymous said...

fellow bloggers might like to see this site:

http://angielittlefield.com/NorvalMorrisseau.html

CT said...

CT is back.
and yes I have identified myself to the Blogmaster for those who may doubt. TB888 & others I have no reason to hide. I also don't fear feable minds who threaten others with lawsuits. I am asking questions, just like others, but I hear NOTHING????????
wild day on the blog.
my point here would be, I see alot of bunk, but many good questions, what concerns me is the silence to some questions?
W5 ? we will only know if there is a story when they announce it a few days before it aires? if it aires.
I looked at the legit questions here, yes there actually are a few, personally I'm intrested in the whole debate about the signature on the back issue? but only on the documented works. I think this could be a very important question to answer. in fact VERY IMPORTANT.
it has been asked almost as many times as people claim there are Morrisseau paintings in the market. but nothing, WHY.
I'm starting to feel that perhaps
W5 or something similar could provide some answers, as we are not getting them here? again, WHY.
leave the slander and childish remarks out, lets focus on the questions.
CT.

Bryant Ross said...

I would like to answer a question from earlier on this page.

"question to
Gabe, Kinsman, Mr Ross, NGC
have you ever had a Morrisseau painting which was signed on the back ? if so which one?"

I have had many paintings with writing on the back. I have one painting in my own collection that has a shopping list on the back. When Morrisseau did title a painting he often wrote an explanation along with it. but this writing was always done in pencil or ballpoint pen. Out of all the paintings that I have had, I can remember only one that had writing in black paint. But it was not his signature or the title of the painting. It said " value $3500".
I also had 2 painting that were signed , titled and dated in black scatchy paint on the back. These 2 paintings were deemed not authentic by the artist.
So I would answer that NO I have never had an authentic painting by Morrisseau that was signed, titled or dated on the back with black paint.
I hope that answers your question.

The blog has been changed back to moderation. Spirit Walker and myself do not agree on alot of topics, fore most the authenticity of some of the paintings presented on this blog. We have agreed to dis-agree. Everyone is intitled to their opinion.
So the blog was "open" for today. Some interesting comments were exchanged, There was also some unnessesary malicious statements. Someone began posting comments with profane content, dis-respecting others and dis-respecting Norval Morrisseau. This culminated in someone trying to post Spirit Walkers real name over and over again on the blog. The person that did this is trying to destroy the blog. It is his fault that we can not post freely on this site.
I believe that Spirit Walker's intentions are honorable. I do not agree with him, but I do not hold dis-respact for him. Because of the screening he will have to do there will be a lag in time when you post your comment. He does have a life and can not be available 24/7. He promises me that he will post everything, wether he agrees with it or not, that does not have malicious intentions. So keep the profanity to your self and lets get on with an intelligent conversation.

Anonymous said...

I see there are some calling for comments from me on this blog. A little background...

I loved Norval's work from the moment I first experienced it. At the time, I had no idea of my Cree heritage... The Creator works in mysterious ways...

Anyhow, on this journey of discovery of my self spirit, I crossed paths with Christian and David. Both these persons are artists. David, like his father, is afflicted with personal demons which have not allowed him to bloom into what he could be.

Notwithstanding all this jawboning back and forth, I can only offer limited commentary on this board. I value Christian and David very much, am cautious regarding their privacy and reluctant to speak for them.

In regards to the debate about fakes of Norval'w works, I will say this:

There are fakes out there. In fact, both Gabe and Christian know some of the artists who painted them. There are some very serious art collectors who know who some of these "fakers' were also.

What really complicates the issues of authenticity are the mismanagement of a truly great artists' career. Much of the blame for this falls on Norval's demons including well documented binges. When in the midst of an extended binge, Norval's work suffered also so there are many works with inconsistent quality. Of course, in later years, his health robbed him of a steady hand and while those works where certainly not as high in quality as earlier works - his colours still shone and healed.

I wonder why anyone managing this artist would not painstankingly document any works they could since this problem was predictable long before Norval passed away.

I try to photograph and document every painting Christian has made for this very reason. It protects the artist, the collectors and the estates. I have explained this to Christian many times in order to impress upon him that it will benefit him and his children in the long run.

I also know from stories of those who knew him, that Norval had a following of artists who assisted him in producing works at times. This begs the question:

If Norval sketched a painting, instructed a student to paint it in certain colours chosen by him or had them paint backgrounds for him and he finished the painting - was it a Morrisseau?

If you think it is, then why would it be any different for those paintings he worked on with Christian in BC?

Christian has publically stated that he would paint background colours for his fathers works and Gabe knew this. However, when Norval does the same thing and the paintings are sold by Christian and Eugene - with Norval looking on - they are called fakes?

I also wonder why Norval's thumbprint on these paintings is testimony to them being "fakes" when a document, not witnessed by a unaffiliated third party, with Norvals' thumbprint is used to distance Norval from his children's foundation.

If the thumbprint means nothing - then it means nothing for both sides of this debate.

I truly wish Norval had not been left in this situation. This debate dishonours him and the legacy he has left behind for all of us who love and appreciate his genius.

I do not speak for Christian or David. These are my thoughts.

I have to wonder how such a beautiful person could completely disavow his children... I am not sure all the facts in this matter have come forth. I have also seen and heard things that suggest to me that some persons are playing games at the expense of Norval's legacy for reasons that could be interpreted as greed.

As a business person, I would suggest that there could be a compromise reached by the parties in this debate if the goal was truly to "protect" a legacy.

But this requires cooperation - on both sides - give and take - on both sides and the willingness to put the legacy and art before personal desires.

I am saddened by this nonsense. I am also saddened for the collectors who have beatiful works by Norval who face claims of forgeries when there doesn't exist any proof of this.

I know the best way to clean is to put light on the dirt so it can be removed.

I hope this matter gets resolved eventually in a common sense manner. At the end of the day - sorry - nobody can monopolize Norval. His spirit was too big for that.

I will answer what I can from time to time and may offer an observation from time time if this board wishes.

Lastly, I would like to remind all those who love the healing colours and the woodland art that David and Christian are artists and paint beautiful works. Worried about an original Morrisseau? I know an original Morrisseau - Christian Morrisseau. Buy a Christian Morrisseau piece. They are beautiful and he is only getting better.

I don't get paid when you do. I love Norval's works and I love Christian and David's works. In fact, I had one of Christian's thunderbirds tattooed on my arm. Christian thought it was cool. I told him him I believed in him and loved his work. I still do be lieve in him and love his work.

And I can honestly say that David and Christian are some of the most gentle souls I've met.

All my relations,

JZ

CT said...

Thanks for that info Bryant.
I'm not sure how others feel, but I looked at a few of the intelligent posts from the last day or so, and I feel this topic may be a very important part of the question, is it authentic ? not completely, but still important enough to investigate further.
can any other source of "already confirmed" painings comment? I am trying to keep this question seperate from the other paintings some call fakes. not because they are not important, but the topic is a seperate one.( for now)
one topic at a time please.
hope to see some decent post at the end of the day. thanks

Anonymous said...

Spirit Walker - perhaps you should delete all the crap on this post and only keep the comments provided by JZ. Finally someone who is willing to talk and share information. JZ - thank you and as someone who truly appreciates Norval Morrisseau's work I look forward to hearing more from you in the future.

I guess one question I have is if people actually know who is creating the fakes - why has nothing been done?

Anonymous said...

interesting post by Mr Ross which seems to at least in part cofirm or support a previous posting regarding the comments made that Norval did not sign his works in english on the back?
this will need further comment from those in the know.
we are all waiting for those who know, but are reluctant to share?
thank you.

Anonymous said...

WHy has noone done anything if they know who the fakers are?

Answer: I have never asked teh question directly but can relate bits from what I've heard and experience with a faker myself...

I can relate that one of the Morrisseaus knew that another Annishnaabe was creating fake Morrisseaus. So, he painted a replica of this other Annishnaabe's work and signed the Morrisseau name on it and placed in plain view of all on the reserve.

This angered the other painter who took offense. The Morrisseau family member, when asked to take it down, said to this "faker" - This is how we feel when you dishonour my father and his art. You should not be doing this if you truly respected Norval.

So, I can say that part of this issue is that generally speaking, First Nations aren't very confrontational. They also like to deal with matters intrnally.

I can also relate that I had to confront a person who had replicated art by Christian. Yes, Christian has had a faker already himself. I involved the RCMP and the person has been cautioned. I will say that I learned that it is very difficult to litigate and prosecute copyright infringements of art pieces. So there is a legal complexity.

I also believe, and this is not confirmed, that some of the fakes were being produced by members of Norval's family. While this upset others in the family - ultimately, nobody wishes to prosecute a family member. And for the record, I am not referring to Christian, Eugene or David in this case.

There are a lot of people with their fingers in the Norval Morrisseay pie. Some woudl argue that the worst were people who knew him well.

All my Relations,

JZ

Anonymous said...

Simple answer:

It is one thing to know. Another to prove.

Ask any lawyer that!

jz

Anonymous said...

I have four Morrisseau paintings - two of them done in the late 60's/early 70's (craft paper and white board paper) - one dated 1969 (artist paper) and third not dated but circa 1980 (canvas). None have a painted signature on the back - the circa 1980 one does have Norval's signature on the strecther in ball point pen. I will try to get come pictures to share...

Anonymous said...

WHy has noone done anything if they know who the fakers are?

Answer: I have never asked teh question directly but can relate bits from what I've heard and experience with a faker myself...

I can relate that one of the Morrisseaus knew that another Annishnaabe was creating fake Morrisseaus. So, he painted a replica of this other Annishnaabe's work and signed the Morrisseau name on it and placed in plain view of all on the reserve.

This angered the other painter who took offense. The Morrisseau family member, when asked to take it down, said to this "faker" - This is how we feel when you dishonour my father and his art. You should not be doing this if you truly respected Norval.

So, I can say that part of this issue is that generally speaking, First Nations aren't very confrontational. They also like to deal with matters intrnally.

I can also relate that I had to confront a person who had replicated art by Christian. Yes, Christian has had a faker already himself. I involved the RCMP and the person has been cautioned. I will say that I learned that it is very difficult to litigate and prosecute copyright infringements of art pieces. So there is a legal complexity.

I also believe, and this is not confirmed, that some of the fakes were being produced by members of Norval's family. While this upset others in the family - ultimately, nobody wishes to prosecute a family member. And for the record, I am not referring to Christian, Eugene or David in this case.

There are a lot of people with their fingers in the Norval Morrisseay pie. Some woudl argue that the worst were people who knew him well.

All my Relations,

JZ

Anonymous said...

excellent comment jz - finaly someone with something intelligent to say.

the ink guy said...

thanks John
glad to hear that you have initiated steps by documenting Christians work. wish others had done the same for Norval.
perhaps there would be less of an issue today.
" the ink guy"

Spirit Walker said...

Number of comments were deleted due to non-appropriate content. Also,those comments directed to the individuals that do not even visit NORVAL MORRISSEAU BLOG were deleted too.

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

SW - with so many anonymous postings how do you know who is and who is not viewing this blog and adding content?

Spirit Walker said...

Do you have any suggestions regarding question directed to me? Are you willing to disclose who you are that we can have open discussions?

I am welcoming anybody to join me on this spirit quest for truth.

Are you willing to join me?

Anonymous said...

Who is spirit walker? Why not start there before you ask for others to identify themselves.

It would appear you can count the names of people that actually provide their full name to their comments on one hand (Karl, Michael, Bryant ... sorry could be more but can not be bothered having a deeper look).

Who am I...I am a collector that fell in love with Norval's work. I purchased a couple of pieces with my hard earned cash and bought them not realizing the state of the market. Now I am questioning the paintings I bought and I am looking for answers. I am sure I am not the only person with this same situation on this blog and that is why the same questions arise. There seems to be many of us.

I am not an expert in his painting styles and his life. I never meet him and know little about him and his association with various people and galleries. I have little to offer but to ask questions seeking the truth for myself and to gain knowledge.

I am willing to join this quest for truth but want answers not just big statements.

Spirit Walker said...

I will disclose my identity to anyone who contacts me at spiritwalker2008@gmail.com.

For the blog I would like to remain Spirit Walker and I would respect if others refer to me as such.

I can give you my honest opinion about your paintings if you are willing to share the images with me.

I would just like that more of those who can help the cause to assist me... I am presenting the platform and all of you are free to join.

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Anyone who wishes to contact me to verify that I am a real person can do so by emailing me at:

info@christianmorrisseau.com

jz

the ink guy said...

the ink guy says.
John is the real deal.
and a nice guy at that.
met him and Christian at his Toronto area Gallery opening last Sept.
many emails confirm this in my mind.
much respect.

ink guy said...

should have added this to my previous.
Comments from JZ should be taken seriously, he is a decent guy with good connections and knowledge, I certainly have no reason to doubt and highly value his comments and professionalism.

Spirit Walker said...

Thank you JZ...

Anonymous said...

I remember you well Ink Guy. Thank you for the kind comments.

Thank you for your interest in this beautiful art.

I hope you received what was due to you and that all is well.

All my Relations,

JZ

ink guy said...

to JZ I hope this Thursday is the day..I hope.

I just looked over some posts and want to state and agree with some of the posts.
these paintings in question will not go away, authenticity of most may never be confirmed. the question will come down to " how to put a value on them"
I think many of them are very well done, be it by Morrisseau in full, in part. or not at all. they are still worth something.
what is the price formula.
if you like it, want it. buy it but remember, it may or may not be by Morrisseau?

Anonymous said...

Ink guy makes a very good comment...one that I brought up before. There is a 'Morrisseau'for everyone. We all know what it would cost to purchase a well documented Morrisseau and we all know what it would cost to purchase a Morrisseau that is not documented. The lower the price the bigger the risk you may be taking. Does that create two types of Morrisseau paintings - YES - ones that are well documented and ones that are not and if Morrisseaus lifestyle there will always be these paintings that are not well documented.

ink guy said...

good post.
I agree with the
" a Morrisseau for all comment "
advanced collectors are unlikely to purchase from ebay or else where if there is no professional gallery link to the work, or if the provenance is not there, thats just how it is.
risk is always an issue in the purchase or investment in art, that's the way it is, and has always been.
it comes down to the buyer and seller.

JZ said...

I think the value of art is very much controlled by the buyers because demand drives prices. The artist can try to limit supply to drive prices higher but ultimately, a piece of art is only worth what someone is willing to buy it for. It doesn't really serve any practical purpose whereby economic output can be measured.

Collectors and those who buy and sell art are more concerned with valus because they don't want to lose money. But art lovers, love the art they buy for reasons not relatd to economics. If you think about it - is a painting moves you and affects you positively - does it matter who painted it? I've seen some wonderful 'Morrisseaus" which cannot be autenticated by Provenance. However, they paintings are beautiful and I love them. Maybe someday I would find out Norval didn't paint them. So? I didn't pay full price but even better - I loved the painting and wanted it.

I think the best approach is to buy art that moves you.

Anonymous said...

ink guy said...
I agree with the
" a Morrisseau for all comment "
advanced collectors are unlikely to purchase from ebay or else where if there is no professional gallery link to the work, or if the provenance is not there, thats just how it is.

"eBay is a great place to buy a genuine Norval Morrisseau"

Stop dissing the secondary market...which is an economic threat to galleries for now.

Spirit Walker said...

Ink Guy... you wrote: "ink guy wants to know why my post from last night did not go through?
is censorship back again? the post was not offensive at any, rather good for all sides????
whats UP"

Yes, censorship is back again but I pomised I would place everything with appropriate content. Can you please send comment again? I might have deleted it by mistake... SW

ink guy said...

it took too long to compose and write.
sorry, I can't waste any more time here.
good luck

Anonymous said...

You can find a lot of Morrisseau paintings on eBay - no question about that! Whether it is a great place to buy a Morrisseau is really up the buyer to decide. Some will be happy to purchase a painting with no/little provenance, some will not know about the issues raised on this blog and buy in good faith and others will not touch them. It is up to the buyers to decide if it is a good place to buy or not and not up to the seller to tell us that is a good place to buy. The secondary market needs to be discussed and it needs to be defended.

Spirit Walker has done a great job a keeping this blog going. He has asked that individuals adding comments please use an identity to mark their comments. Out of respect for the time he is taking to keep this alive I would encourage everyone adding comments to adhere to this request.

AP

Anonymous said...

i have a great idea.How about posters who completely identify themselves with their full names will not be subjected to Spiritwalker's deletions but those that come in anonymously will be scrutinized to the blog masters descretion if their comments are out of control and get deleted!
that would solve alot of sneak attacks by people with ulterior motives.
i guess guys like poor Ink Guy wouldn't like that one...eh?

Anonymous said...

see how INKGUY writes he can't waste anymore time here?so what do you do enter a blog and desiminate your lies and opinions to confuse people and run away like a scared rat...you have provided zero in the way of any useful information...facts guy facts....

Spirit Walker said...

Ink Guy wrote: "it took too long to compose and write.
sorry, I can't waste any more time here. good luck"

SW writes: "Consider that I am the only one who is working on a Blog and if you do not see your comments posted immediately wait until the following day before you start judging me. I just want you to know that I cannot be available 24/7 to accomodate everyone's request.

Haven't I showed enough proof that I have good intentions in mind?

Thanks."

Meds4U said...

2 posts above
why so hostile TB888?
your contribution would be.....?